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Receptacle Illusion

 
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David Tang
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:10 pm    Post subject: Receptacle Illusion Reply with quote

Does Plato's "receptacle" have an exact meaning, like Aristotle's statement that if one displaces the air in a cup with water, and the water with air, one demonstrates a third place, where both water and air perdure and which itself lasts forever?
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David Tang
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete Answers: The resepticle is a Platonic answer to the question about the idea. It stands alongside the view given in the Paramenides. Beware!
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Peter Blumsom



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The upadokhe - Ananke's lair - is indeed a strange and perplexing construction, hard to define in mode of reality, but nevertheless described by Plato as a Form. What do you make of it yourself, O Tang? Could Plato's system work without it?
Pete
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Plato DNA



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I imagine the receptacle to be equivalent with Akasha from Hindu philosophy. Especially as explained in the book The Hindu Realism. The paramanus of Hindu philosophy might actually be the "forms" of Plato (paramanus is not to be interpreted as atoms, which is a common misconception). It might be more accurate to extend Plato's “forms” beyond just paramanus, and include all nine of the Dravyas (Realities/Entities) according to the Nyaya Vaisheshika philosophy. There are many things common between these seemingly two philosophies that may make more sense and be more complete when they are combined.

Jason
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Peter Blumsom



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Jason,
Your mention of the number nine in this regard has my antennae buzzing. What are these nine dravyas? They might be connected to something I have in mind. Of course I'm sure you know that the 'elements' of Timaeus are not elements at all but are composed of triangular units. It was Empedocles who called them (unbreakable) elements. Nevertheless the link with akarsha is I think valid.
Pete
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Plato DNA



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pete,

This is a brief summary of the Nine Dravyas as described in The Hindu Realism by J.C. Chatterji. I tried to keep it brief, especially with the last two. So much can be said about them that I just tried to keep it as simple as possible. There is a great deal of logic and reasoning that goes along with these concepts. There is a lot of misconception with trying to fit them into the English language, whether it is from lack of proper words or the lack of proper understanding that some English words carry with them. All nine are eternal and without magnitude (all pervading). All things are paraphrased from The Hindu Realism.

THE NINE DRAVYAS (Realities or Entities)

1 ) The Paramanus which originates temperature. (Air)
2 ) The Paramanus which originates luminosity. (Fire)
3 ) The Paramanus which originates flavor. (Water)
4 ) The Paramanus which originates odor. (Earth)


Each one has the qualities of the previous one, so...

Air has temperature.
Fire has temperature and luminosity.
Water has temperature, luminosity, and flavor.
Earth has temperature, luminosity, flavor, and odor.

Each paramanus has it's own special quality, without that quality it would no longer exist.

Each Paramanus itself is...
- Self subsisting and cannot be conceived as originating from something else.
- Without parts and cannot be destroyed (they are eternal).
- Have no magnitude, do not occupy space, and have no inside or outside.
- They can only be conceived by the mind; so they are super-sensible, non-spatial, transcendental, and can never be perceived by the senses or any instrument.
- Only their special qualities can be sensed as listed above.
- They produce things of limited magnitude (sensible objects/material/elements/substance).
- They are the ultimates of all sensible things.

"They are different from each other not by any measure but only in their capacity to produce the four special qualities in those various sensible things which are of limited magnitude and which, as such, are themselves but Paramanus in compound forms."

It is stated that in order for something of magnitude to be created from the Paramanus, they must be set apart by a number not less than three. (Perhaps this is were the triangles come in?)

5 ) AKASHA

In order for the Paramanus to be set apart, a fifth Realty is needed. That is Akasha.

“The Paramanus are like pure points. They cannot produce things of magnitude if they actually touch one another. They produce things by standing away from one another and yet being joined. There must be some reality which, being in touch with different Paramanus which are otherwise separate from one another, serves as a medium for their union.”

This medium must be an eternal all pervading continuum in order to be in touch with all things with magnitude.

The special quality of Akasha is sound. Sound cannot be said to inhere in any of the four forms of sensible matter.

“In Akasha all discrete things move and as they move they produce sounds not in themselves, that is, as a property inherent in themselves, but in the medium in which they move”

“It is also absolutely motionless. Since it is a continuum, it cannot move from one place to another, nor can it contract or expand.”

“Akasha is super-sensible, as it cannot be perceived by the senses. For everything that is perceived by the senses is so perceived by some contrast. Contrast, again, means some sort of distinction and isolation. Being a uniform continuum, there can be no distinction made.”

Akasha is place, locality, or room. Eternal and without magnitude.

6 ) KALA

An all pervading force that creates movement, change, the coming into existence and passing out of it (produces and destroys). Creates the regular orderly movements of all sensible things. Past, present, and future. Eternal and without magnitude.

7 ) DIK

A power or force that holds things in various positions. Things are not only moving and changing, but they hold relative positions, that is, stand at relative distances from one another at all moments of time. They are held together in these positions. This force acts in a direction opposite of Kala. It produces relations among thins of the nature of what may be called spatial directions. Eternal and without magnitude.

8 ) ATMAN

The ultimate Being. Atman is the Reality in which all consciousness inheres. It is all pervading (in touch with all things). The basis of consciousness and experience. Eternal and without magnitude. Referred to as “That One” or as the “One Being”.

9 ) MANA

Concrete Mentality. The special relation between Atman and the senses that allows for perception. Eternal and without magnitude.


Thanks,

Jason
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Peter Blumsom



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Jason,

Like you I don’t wish to go into burdensome detail. The model I was thinking of bears quite a lot of resemblance to yours (which is from Jain philosophy, I believe). Mine is advaita - vedanta, another form of Hinduism. It too is a nine-fold where akasha takes the central role – fifth of nine steps. These are placed around what is called ‘the circle of nine points’. On one side are placed the traditional elements of the physical realm and on the other are the subtle and causal realms. It comes from a conversation with the previous Shankaracharya of Northern India, Sri Santanada Sarasvati. Here’s how he describes the role of akasha:

“The number five falls in the middle from both sides. On one side is the physical world which can be subject to observation, and on the other side are the world of subtle and causal nature.

When the causal and subtle world is transformed into the coarse world, then it is done through the akasha, which connects both. It is like a transformer which changes one type of energy into another, or like an interpreter who makes obvious thje ideas framed in an unknown language. It must have the qualities of both sides, otherwise no communication would be possible.

Akasha gives way to all the physical forms and it is only due to akasha that the creation has found manifestation. It stands as a bridge to the mental and causal world.”


There is a close correlation between Santananda’s vision and Plato’s Receptacle of All Becoming. But one original feature of the above version is the interpretation of the circle itself which is the individual self, the tenth man who is always forgotten. Thus it includes also what lies beyond the receptacle of Plato, that which is and can never not be.

As you said, there is more that could be added, and I may do so in the next day or two. It’s a big subject.

Pete
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David Tang
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, if necessity is more understood with respect to stones moving, or an earthquake, or jumping up and falling down, or the flash of a hand which strikes a face and makes a blue bruise, it might see the sky, far away, hardly paying attention to it. The sky would be the place where reason can see and can order catness, houseness and beauty. Then, this third thing, is where they come together. So the receptacle doesn't name the visible qualities, or, on the other hand, the mere eidos. The eidos means we see a cat, and the qualities mean that we see a mean and big, rather disheveled cat with mud on its paw. Thus, the eidos makes a neat garden row, and laughs at the spotty charecter of actual things. Yet, without the neat garden row, which we can then consult about morality and convention, we could never see the spotty mess of things. Yet, Plato, it seems, already prepares Aristotle in this theory of his, of receptacle, and that is what you seem to want to lead us to when you say, receptacle is "form". Form could mean, simply, morphe, a glance with the eyes, but, in Aristotle, it means, also, a special combination of eidos and "sense-data". Perhaps it is so that Aristotle lied and made it seem that Plato's main view was the Third Man, simply in order to emphasize his own view, which, anyway, was already discussed and prepared by his betters. However, in all likelihood, Plato felt receptacle had been tainted by overly rigid thought, devoid of wisdom and experience. Thus, the high intelligence of Timaeus, which does not reach the maturity of Socrates, brings forth the notion in its light.
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Peter Blumsom



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Location: Wembley, London, UK

PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.
Quote:
Thus, the eidos makes a neat garden row, and laughs at the spotty charecter of actual things. Yet, without the neat garden row, which we can then consult about morality and convention, we could never see the spotty mess of things.


This is a highly philosophical thought in potential. People, musicians and academicians never saw the beauty of the highly ordered style galant which grew out of the fallen edifices of the Baroque. While Bach and Handel thundered these little spring like flowers piccolo'd in the future. Their profundity lay disguised in their shallow form, in their very tidiness and neatness.

// start in C , I go to G// I start in G, go back to C, but have a little sturm und drang adventure on the way//

How brilliant, it changed everything

I'll respond to your other points when I have addressed Tim's post.
Pete
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