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Some thoughts on Plato's Same and Other.
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Peter Blumsom



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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Location: Wembley, London, UK

PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Yuri,

Quote:
Quote:
It is so uncomfortable a thought
That we solve the problem
By not thinking about it.


The disintegration of my own mind, for which I am eternally grateful, took place many years ago. Those three lines you quote preceded some kind of cure but I'd heap neither malady nor remedy on anyone! In my single case - nothing special among millions of others , after trying what seemed to me at the time EVERYTHING, it came when for strange reason I pulled a copy of Plotinus' Enneads from a dusty shelf in a Charing Cross Road bookshop. I'd devoured more or less all the required reading for 'madmen' at the time and still wondered why, as a relatively successful musician living an extremely active life, I was continuously experiencing a kind of hollow dread which followed me everywhere. I could understand nothing of Plotinus and that in itself intrigued me; none of the usual cajoling existentialist buzzwords of the time. His eyes were looking elsewhere and his thoughts were on something else, certainly not on my troubles, which I doubt he'd have been very impressed by. I read and I was affected by his words, which were difficult, human and quiet, and something to rebuild from. That was the beginning of my troubled relation with the Greek essence (though Plotinus was a late flowering).

You'll have to forgive me on Infinity. That was The Problem - the aporia, as it were. It no longer perplexes me. The Greeks were not over fussed by it either. As the mind looks self-wards, infinity and the void cannot hold their place. But ah, that is Plotinus speaking (I would say in all his splendour). Though it doesn't dovetail coherently into post-enlightenment thought my internal compass defaults always in that direction.

Pete


Last edited by Peter Blumsom on Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Yuri Leonardas



Joined: 29 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Pete

Quite honestly i keep promising to return your kind forum dedication and work on smaller bites - but then deliver 365 days supply. I think its just the days we have that causes this i.e Ah !! 30 mins of plato forum - then completely forget!

I need my head checked for going into streams of consciousness like this

Your personal human depth and senses of humanity impress myself tbh - a very evocative person emotionally and openly

Never boring thats for sure Smile

I'll get back on something compact shortly

Yuri
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Bryan Carr



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete,

I am with Wittgenstein on this, and so, with you too. Yes, philosophy is about being grounded in the real world -- forget all the cliches about Thales falling into a well because he was staring off into space; we are also told he was savvy enough to corner the olive market!

In any case, your anecdote is a perfect gem, for the supposed ordinariness of it, and the vulnerability is shows as well. (And you know, there's many a married philosopher -- I speak from experience -- who could profit from this story. I wonder what sorts of conversations Socrates and Xanthipe had about washing up.

Now, as to "everything in it's place." You and I are both musicians -- though (if it's a question of "like and "unlike"), it must be said that my chops are not "like" yours! Leaving that aside, the thing about any musical scale is that one note's 'place' determines another's -- there is, arguably, no "absolute space" because, although the notes are functions of one another (in terms of ratios), they also must be smoothed and fudged in order to work together peaceably.

And thus the model of the World Soul in Timaeus turns out to be also a model for how to clean up after supper. And even, how to function in a marriage...?
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Yuri Leonardas



Joined: 29 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Pete


Quote:
You'll have to forgive me on Infinity. That was The Problem - the aporia, as it were. It no longer perplexes me.


Aporia yes - perhaps in itself the universal archetype of all cognitive biases - this is an awesome phenomena.

If you'd not mind i will not so much re-describe the manifold semantics attached to this Essence. Why Essence ? - it is not a Form certainly but surely is on that level. Secondly it might well be the first positively identified 'essence' we have had to study in the history of the use 'essence' within our young dialogues.

Quite honestly though Pete our 'State' is such that we might find God himself and toss in the bin because we are studying as if a Greek 'Knew' something about notions of things which we do not.

Reasonably then why does Yuri Leonardas << actually birth names btw - i was once accused by an intense art teacher of mimicking the great Leonardo out of sarcasm because of my own name. And Theodorus is my 3rd - and this is how dedicated my mother was - who i want an excuse to mention. My point is she knew of Aporia greatly - i remember that existential crisis in her very well. She was a former prisoner of war ( Batavia ) & while her inner journey was a scary one nonetheless her redeemer (finally).

Her journey within was so difficult because her unconscious mind had been pushed to breaking point by the brutality of the japanese ( of the time ) - i love the Japanese people. Not my father but she was married to a naval officer and was tortured for information resulting in almost 100% of her torso her being burned to absolute first degree not quite to the bone. Their style - not legs - not face - not arms - just the body. The only relationship i had with her was Artistic & Philosophical - not because she was this great exponent, not because of my names - nothing like that. Because of her state - and how she needed to function mentally so that her predicament with impossible to erase inner demons did not overwhelm her.

Quote:
In my single case - nothing special among millions of others



Well empathy paradoxes kind of say we do and don't - but these things happen basically and neither of us are looking for sympathy in a corporeal world not atypical to just our tragedy - so to continue.

I can confidently say cognito ergo sum thanks to Plato Socrates Plotinus Pythagorus et al - many others - & Karl Jung was crucial. A weakness in greek thought is how crude their descriptions of the inner journey is - a mish mash with erudite tidbits enticingly circulating around but little coherence - a virtually religion tidied it up or what's very much ruled by Aporia - in its confusion reaches.

Aporia is not the place to look for phenomenology of the mind if it is an Essence. I am not suggesting it is a perceptual field so as to supplant a perception of knowledge by making a definition. But it clearly is so huge in its affect that it shows traits beyond less that extraordinary energies do. The reason ? - the number of epi-phenomenon it has, rather like Awareness is possible an epi-phenomenon of Consciousness. But - Aporia shows moons so numerous in number ( the Epi ) that it is like Jupiter when other phenomenon are like Pluto. But not Jupiter something far more vastly embedded in the microcosmos - even beyond the novel boundary condition of Forms disparate over the unlimited i discussed - the next place even deeper into infinity perhaps.

Plotinus - Hypostasis - imho Aporia could be on that level of phenomena - and it relates to the inner journey so much in your experience ( and mine ) - and interplay between the Essence & its 'Epi- Essences' << which really does not translate. Like the snake that by some odd synchronicity sliver away as Plotinus entered into his universal soul i do not think it can because the topography was not supplied - we have to face it or wander like hermits with torches within among the epi- phenomenon later described by others.


Quote:
none of the usual cajoling existentialist


I'd agree he does not on the surface or at all in, but Plotinus is a very good emulator closet exo-existentialist affect. I fancy very much by a cosmic joke played upon all humanity since the beginning . Plotinus must do Plotinus simply- but it does not mean he is going to be giver of a map which will avoid our inner paradox. He surely minimised much which Plato's wanted to lead his symposium to the gates of, and hence Plotinus streamlined the effects of Plato's path to them. This could be crude and say he airbrushed them over but i do not feel that way about Plotinus even if that is correct - which i feel it is tbh .

I know i just spoke in dichotomy quite deliberately - but sometimes if you do not it will just grab you by the balls. Not in the least because it would seem Plotinus lacked any understanding, but maybe because of the way that we, if in denial are lead to the source of the whole phenomenon - not epi phenomenon which is actually concerning us.

Plotinus like so many greeks assumed we were designers of our own theory of our own minds in that sense. They lacked this term but there was never an equalling one for ' existential crisis 'in their writings because it was almost an admission of insanity to them. A manifold theory of personal mind problem here then if we consider first why we could expect the universal essence itself to be the denominator force of Nous for our crisis ? - Plotinus stated that essences enfold into the One are collectively are non sentient. Surely in this logic the declassification of the paradox requires states lower down on the order ( Plotinus sets them out ) - where the divine source of one can enter duality, triplicity, and fracture ( Fractals ) - in order to denominate the immaculate surely indefatigable ONE - into what we must know it does in its epic - phenomenons - otherwise we disappear into ONE logic which cannot explain existence !! - just speaks of the way a hidden ONE isn't possible to know of the other side of its paradox ( the phenomenon which caused the ONE ).

Below the ONE we are supposed to discuss its effects by Metaphysics guided by the causes we can observe - but the concept of the ONE keepings sucking at the dialogue as if we are trying to solve the meaning of Infinity Itself

This is precisely why i set out the sequential unlimited infinitely dimensioned model for Forms - we are being very stupid if we cannot see that ONE must denominate itself down into the fusion of sizes we are in - and unlimitedly down forever no matter how deep into the untouchable & unknowable it is at source level. We are only existent in a band of size fusion matters - and what we are capable of observing physically is similarly to what we are restricted to see in the light spectrum indeed. But unless we confess to the empiricists that Metaphysics always was the witchcraft they say, and that we should not use it as a telescope & microscope - we best carry on ignoring the lack of technology ? - and do it.

Thus - to simply say 'The One is Unknowable' as a pointless Agnostic phrase so what ? - of course Infinity is to big to know for christs sake !! The ONES own cause is the impossible - technically nothing below is if we are serious about Nous - but it does not mean we shall find. The ONES causal lesser phenomenons are required to be NOT impossible to discuss though unless we want Metaphysics to render itself nonsense. Fits in nicely with this stealthy seed of the anti metaphysics empiricist meme i speak of. There is only a missing sense of scale and a causeless ONE to avoid delusion of understanding actually or we might erode Metaphysics. This time not representionalist against Forms even they have no need. In fact the empiricists just slash a Infinity or deity or paradox @ random - it makes no difference to them how they negate or what in search of Finity. Their religion is a theory of everything and must discuss cosmic Limit before even attempting it otherwise they are meaningless. All we have to do is state we have no ability to establish a cause of the Plotinus ONE - everything else should be in Nous unless it has selective memory problems.


Quote:
That was the beginning of my troubled relation with the Greek essence


We all can - we either find a way to address our own epi phenomenon which is wired into the actual phenomenon's ( or Essence's ) = perceptual field or we melt down. Cognitive biases such as Dissonance only help us to state we are happy to be deranged - they do not solve the crisis itself.

Btw - Cognitive biases (imho ) are just a more modern term for some of the epic phenomenon of 'Aporia' - the Essence & Field - 1 of immacualte essences that 'The One' made in order to define humanity via the struggle it shall cause.

* at this point there is no point having entanglement with the Non Sentience Doctrine - a grand universal paradox makes it evident that sentient or not the phenomenon prevails. We can dispute my whole notion that Aporia is - this sized -this significant - that proportion - so on - sure.

It would not matter either way what it is tbh - in Metaphysics we push logic to reveal ?. Unless we suddenly say we do not want to - the meaning is Happiness & us. Ok - but Plotinus had a empty hypothesis - lets face it - he more or less says give up metaphysics and take up religion Smile

He knew how to neuro linguistically insert a cognitive bias long before either terms were ever thought of - and there is nothing wrong with having a powerfully dedicated mindset to the greeks but being bi-lingual in these terms i can assure you.

Quote:
I'd devoured more or less all the required reading for 'madmen'


Yes we do - and not one wit of an ancient philosopher is to blame - the human predicament is. They could only be human and make the inquiries. But we are deluded & biased when we claim we wish to understand they - we are attempting to understand ourselves with intellectual stimulation which might just happen to bring some epi phenomenal advantages to boot loosely around those philosophers - and to some income - to others to offer a service.

Then we indulge in a separate dissonance sometimes - roughly to do with us trying to emulate the occasional semi non authentic professional who might occult a lack of passion. Actual work of study can be like putting the phone down after a call - forgotten but not substantial even given the place and station. It is not out of the question that with the 4th rate professional philosophers that publish today that we might try to use a cognitive bias to acquire their calmness. Noting an aparent peace of mind during engagement under they belief that 'they do it properly' or so on. Do they ? - are we to assume this composed & self integrated look whilst tackling hard problems ?. They might not have challenged their unconscious minds or tapped upon gates of spiritual fear to request metaphysical insight.

Quote:
I read and I was affected by his words, which were difficult, human and quiet, and something to rebuild from.


Good points yes - for say - i seem seem to visit rants a lot about the establishment and they feel noisy ofc. I would deny this is emotional in every sense and claim such finitely driven philosophy of this age significantly adds to the obstacles and is a valid epi phenomenon to speak of. Plotinus and his usage of Quietism in his streamlines of Plato to a great degree demonstrated that he chose to delegate much of what Plato had stated to the Pseudo Problem. He was a bit of a darling as we know to emerging christian gnostics who both spoke softly for a sense of quiet ( the phenomenon ) - and took a considerable broadsword to Plato as a quietist in the other sense so that matters actually moved away from sterile forms for more a greater non sentient ONE. The christian gnostics were not going to mind this at the time - they were getting the transformative learning keyway they wanted in order to justify a philosophy of a God.

Quietism even prior to its own invention can mean reduce not just eliminate all inquiry - and indeed go to God - to hell with potential non sentience inferences.


Quote:
It no longer perplexes me


I'll not say Plotinus only taught you to go deeper into the abyss before solving your own inner mosaic - but maybe we should be perplexed. If Aporia was never the incomplete map but the eternal essence of the incomplete maps it shall perplex in perpetuity. Do you mean no longer perplexed by its epi phenomenon ?

?

The struggle between conscious mind & unconscious stereotypes - the obstacles which the essence Aporia powers in the field our mind as it driven by us to contact all that is perceptual in Nous ?

Stereotypes - the contents of our chemical memory, ones life experience & memories compacted into stereotype information. The monkey we refuse to talk about who is designed to have a non nous based chemically powered life memory as the obstacle to our conscious minds effort to motif our way past these chemical gates in order to speak with the very non chemical Nous in the perceptual universal mind. We cannot deny that our brain is also a chemical machine - clever since it is also a perceptual field receptor due to microcosmic charges during the chemical interactions. But !! - nature ( or the ONE if you want it ) didn't waste any design while making that physical ape chemical sampling of emotion part.

Our immortality & Soul is all free of that machine yes - nothing to do with chemistry. But a happy go lucky dissonance didn't cast out my mothers chemically based memory Pete - it was a law unto itself for the poor woman who could only feel ok if she could 'out perceptually think' it - then she would get her peace out there in Nous - where she could forgive planet earth etc and just say 'i have a God'.

As we do i feel - but hers was not even optional because there was little peace for these memories. My point is - this imprint in the chemical unconscious is is a hostile human one. Thus - the day we believe that Plotinus is wrong about Good, where its potency is too weak to give a good person peace on its own we lose the plot.

On its own = in denial of chemical interaction in human memory - as logically speaking we attempt like that to transfer the leak of insanity to Nous = if i can show ways to tear the existing paradigms to bits ( and i'm not even trying ) - what can a real skeptics do ? - but moreover what good is this for the future of the study.

If we do poor battle we just drag metaphysical mess around the perceptual field for others to hear. It is better to liberate oneself from the chains of existential misconceptions - and if a Jungian or Heideggerian patch is better pretending that the greeks did something about existential problems- well it just is.


Quote:
As the mind looks self-wards



Roughly speaking that is about all the greeks said isn't it ? - then everyone with existential dilemmas searched for the way out on the other side of the Unlimited.

Ironic - usually denied by a cognitive bias


Quote:
Though it doesn't dovetail coherently into post-enlightenment thought


My own so much does not that i had to evolve a separate compartment of consciousness so that one would virtually. To do Ancient Greek means there is no turning back but i had to embrace neurophilosophy * psychophysics because there is too much left unaddressed by them. A point where i believed that nothing i could do with the study unless what had been acquired could possibly be of service to the feedback to Nous with further insight. Found ways to examine the topography of the inner journey and refrained from the delusion that thou must avoid modernity. The beauty and prettiness - the act of upholding the style - i get that. Are we not intelligent enough to journey modernity but bring the harvest back for Nous ?

Maybe we have to be careful of the black & white TV license delusion maybe not Aporia though ( i feel ) is quintessentially an epi phenomenon of the Plotinus ONE - which has further epP of its own which are the affects on our minds. In turn those effects reduce to further sub phenomenon - so on

Which greatly is what Plotinus said - obviously i cannot know yet if you can agree with much of this

Quote:
infinity and the void cannot hold their place


It will depend greatly on what our perspective orientation is on that since the unconscious mind is attached to our fight or flight reflexes & we might mistake what the 2 million neutrons in our gut are telling our central nervous system about our fear of such Void in our peripheral vision < something that most presume only concerns our ability to sense just outside our visual field. Reasonably though - peripheral vision is also a set of triggers in the perceptual field link to said unconscious fear. If we are assuming that the Unlimited is causing the forebodings then this again is going to the sky for water when there is a fresh water tap in the kitchen The One is said to be non sentient - why will its sky god ( Essence ) - speak when it arranged for its legions ( Denominations ) - to answer ?

In this form of cause then nature does it job well in self regulating forces as to who can survive the gauntlet of the unconscious mind - and the greeks taught us ( almost ) not to go there. One the other hand the inner journey can observe what is going on when the conscious mind wishes to link with Nous - and finds that much of the quest is about de-commissioning an unconscious mind response that was placed there to only allow those who out wit it to go by.

In other words - the unconscious recycles our personal fear to block rite of passages to Nous and that is the way the universal essence ( could be Aporia ) - designed it to work so that only the greatest diligence might feedback to the Nous what it had concluded by such metaphysics - and since the human race itself is subject to evolution according to what is discovered like this - it is hardly surprising.

We do not inform our own race what we found Pete - we tell Nous and if we are right the mystery remains bar any human who might believe our finding - books & teachings are an illusion is that way even by Plato who was mainly discussing it with Nous.. Instead the unconscious gate which we passed through is no longer about to cope with the Gravitas attached to the iota of metaphysic we established - so is ineffective against us on all future occasions. That is 1 gate to 1 Iota - there are many - and yes we usually vacate this incarnation long before we even scratch the surface .

For a philosophy that so clearly speaks of immortal soul as ancient greek does i would say it is a splendid example of the gaping holes in greek philosophy. When we consider the vacuum in this life continuation sense & this resulting irony where Plato gave nothing here - then it is Plotinus all the way yes. He was the one who could be bothered with death denial thus show the point over a philosophy of many lives.

Can you see who his Utopia is occulted ? - he spread it over separate dimensions and separate incarnations of the souls existence. Are you still confident that FORMS ( only as a valid Metaphysic ) are not placed unlimitedly in sequenced fragments of their codes?

You'd deny the works of the mind Plotinus good friend

If we cannot cope with the irony nor see how an immortal soul might change this irony - we are going to find it hard to tell Nous about it and would encounter exactly the same barrier in the unconscious mind until we have the gravitas on that point - ( and each ) ...

I hope this is more of a 1 topic post that usual Pete hence compact in the best sense - although i now see its overall size is a broken promise (as usual).



Yuri
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David A Taylor



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aporia

More modern sources, perhaps because they come after the advent of post-structuralism, have chosen to omit the rhetorical usage of the term. In William Harmon's A Handbook to Literature, for example, aporia is identified as "a difficulty, impasse, or point of doubt and indecision", while also noting that critics such as Jacques Derrida have employed the term to "indicate a point of undecidability, which locates the site at which the text most obviously undermines its own rhetorical structure, dismantles, or deconstructs itself" (39). Julian Wolfreys, in his essay "Trauma, Testimony, and Criticism", characterizes trauma as aporia, a wound with unending trail. Valiur Rahaman, in his book Interpretations: Essays in Literary Theory (2011), explained aporia as a creative force in both the artist and their art; it is, for the artist, an edgeless edge of the text or a work of art.

Wikipedia

The poet’s eye, in fine frenzy rolling,
Doth glance from heaven to Earth, from Earth to heaven.
And as imagination bodies forth
The forms of things unknown, the poet’s pen
Turns them to shapes and gives to airy nothing
A local habitation and a name.

A Midsummer Nights Dream



Aporia

Fear not, not knowing,
on that edgeless edge
stand firm and silent,
at the threshold
of understanding.
For there is found the door
to what men call mysteries
and Philosophers debate.

The artist and the poet
know that place well,
seek to not defile
its sanctity with thoughts.
But polish all blemishes
from the surface of the mind,
to be a pure reflection
of that One far shining
light of lights.

Shall Alexander's judgement
be our guide?
Greeks adept at painting
whilst Chinese polishing
is most sublime.
Both an aid to vision
as Nizami's Khamsa
does describe.

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Peter Blumsom



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear David,

I always read your poems - you are a poet, no doubt in my mind. Many scratch away but do not convince and its a rare enough talent. You are probably sensing a 'but' loping o'er top of yon hillock. Not really, just a mild men...de as the Greeks would put it. It's about polishing and coincidentally it concerns the Chinese, for your poem reminds me of the dichotomy of Zen Buddism encapsulated here by two verses from the star pupils of the Fifth Patriarch Hung-jen (who had their own way of looking at things).

On the one hand Shen-hsui wrote:

This body is the Bodhi-tree.
The mind is like a mirror bright;
Take heed to keep it always clean
And let not dust collect upon it.

On the other, this was the response from Hui-neng, who became the Sixth Patriarch:

There is no Bodhi tree
Nor stand of mirror bright
Since all is void
Where can the dust alight?

I think I know which the School of Economic Science would espouse, but, I dunno, once one has an inkling of what Hui might have meant by 'void' , (Parmenidean non-being?) my inner compass flickers in his direction.

Pete
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Yuri Leonardas



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello David

Aporia has spread its wings afar yes - its potency has had it described in many a variety of ways. These affects on the mind are (we might assume) in its wake, each experience an 'aftermath' - the contact we have with a strain of it. Since surely it emanates as a perception field and bears its force upon us rather like the heat isn't the flame. Thus taking our developmental minds, but furthermore the variance in neuroplasticity possibly between separate highly developed souls ( so if we had say Blake & Shakespeare ) the effect avails much difference in the centrality of individual experience.

Points of creation perhaps - granted right of passages in the corridors of the unconscious where Aporia thrives but can be overawed through gravitas by the development of the conscious mind.

Yuri
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David A Taylor



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Peter

A perfect choice of poetry from the zen Budhists, thank you.
Could I presume to add a third stanza?

This body is the Bodhi-tree.
The mind is like a mirror bright;
Take heed to keep it always clean
And let not dust collect upon it.

There is no Bodhi tree
Nor stand of mirror bright
Since all is void
Where can the dust alight?

The first a thorn to remove the thorn
that makes the ego bite.
The second a surrender then
which makes both poets right.

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Peter Blumsom



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Bryan,

Thank you for reminding me about Thales. He bought up all the olive presses, didn't he?

Quote:
And thus the model of the World Soul in Timaeus turns out to be also a model for how to clean up after supper. And even, how to function in a marriage...?


Ha! ... Yes, and yes! (in that order).

What you say about musical ratios is both interesting and true. Take 5:4, a nice pleasantly sounding little consonance (to our ears at least) yet there are warring factions hidden within it: five exceeds four by only a fifth of itself, whereas four is exceeded by five to the tune of as much as a quarter of itself. They just don't see eye to eye. And yet we can stand back and say to both: Wotcha arguing about!? It's the same unit in both cases, isn't it? To which I hear the ethereal voice of our late mutual friend, Ernest McClain chide, "Both cases? There's only one unit, and only one case!" Well, Ernest was never wrong, but strangely, neither is anyone else. It must be just another curious case of the Same and Other, duking it up with Plato's other pet pair, the Great and Small.

If anyone is fascinated by such madness and perhaps wants to become mad themselves, I provide this link to Ernest's website: https://ernestmcclain.net/

Meanwhile all marital problems solved here philosophically (for a small fee).

Pete
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David A Taylor



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Pete

Might this help with your internal compass in relation to the texts of Plotinus? I believe I am still adhering to the main topic of Same and (not) Other.

The Gifford Lectures
Edward Caird FRSE (/kɛərd/; 23 March 1835 – 1 November 1908) was a Scottish philosopher, born in Greenock. He was a holder of LL.D., DCL and DLitt.

The Evolution of Theology in the Greek Philosophers

Lecture Twenty-fifth: The Nature of Man and his Relation to God

And this holds still more obviously of the last movement of ascent to the immediate experience of the absolute One. Plotinus himself confesses that this, if it be in one sense a progress to a deeper experience, is yet a movement away from all definite consciousness either of the self or of its objects; and he even goes so far as to compare the indefinable and indeterminate nature of matter which is below knowledge with the equally indefinable nature of the One which is above it. “As it is asserted of matter that it must have none of the qualities of things in itself, if it is to receive equally the impressions of them all, so and in a much more absolute way, must the soul become formless, if nothing is to hinder it from being filled and enlightened by the nature which is before all others.”8 Are we then to say that the whole process of spiritual ascent is not a movement to a more full and concrete consciousness of reality, but simply a movement of abstraction, in which, one after another, every feature of the world we know disappears till nothing is left? And is the “presence deeper than knowledge” in which it ends only another name for the disappearance of the soul and all its contents in the absolute unity?

On this point two things have to be said.
The first is, that the religious man's realisation of the deepest truth often takes a form which might without much inaccuracy be described as a “presence deeper than knowledge,” or at least deeper than his knowledge. In other words, in contrast with his ordinary dispersed and changing experience of finite things, the religious man has an immediate consciousness of a permanent power and presence of the divine, on which he rests, but which he is unable to measure. And when he tries to define what he experiences, expression seems to fail him. Sometimes, like a Hebrew prophet, he uses the highest images he can think of, only to declare their inadequacy; at other times he takes refuge in negatives to get rid of the apparent limitation of every affirmation. As in Dante's vision the whole universe was gathered round a central point in God, who yet at the same time was conceived as an infinite circumference embracing all things, so in the worshipper's heart God contains, and yet transcends, everything; and the double aspect of God as the One in whom all is lost, and yet the One in whom all is found, seems to be expressible only by asserting the failure of all expression. Thus what is really the deepest and fullest of all our experiences is apt to adopt the language of Agnosticism, in order to convey a meaning that seems too great for any form of words.

But, in the second place, we have to observe, that when the man who is thus inspired by “thoughts beyond the reaches of this soul,” declares that he knows nothing, he means the very opposite of what he says. He does not mean that his mind is empty, but that it is too full; and his revolt against the idea of knowledge is caused by his realising a deeper unity, and so a greater completeness of being, than that which is consciously present to him in what he ordinarily calls knowledge. He seems, therefore, to leave such knowledge behind him, as having no relation to the higher object that fills his soul. Nor does he realise that it is from the common consciousness of things and experience that he starts, and that his highest vision or intuitive feeling would have no meaning if it did not reflect back its light on the ordinary world of experience, and enable him, however imperfectly, to reconstitute his view of that world in accordance with “the pattern showed him in the Mount.” For it is, after all, with materials derived from the world of sense that we must build up our New Jerusalem; and the Divine Being whom we oppose to everything else, would be a mere abstraction, if we did not somehow refer all that is finite to him.

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Yuri Leonardas



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On topic perhaps but questionable Mr Taylor particularly given your kind of employ of Poetry. Are you sure you know where the ego is judge sir. You do not answer your fellow man yet want to be superior for God with thorns ?.

Why don't you say in your own words why text Plotinus is appropriate
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Peter Blumsom



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

David,

I don't agree with Mr Caird (holder of LL.D., DCL and DLitt.) and his assessment of Plotinus. Do you?
Pete

P.S.Thankfully you didn't include the previous 24 lectures!

P.P.S. I liked your additional verse. Mebbe that would have been their master's response (before knocking their heads together).
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David A Taylor



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Yuri and Peter

I would not try to out-think any Philosopher with a lifetime of earnest study.
Nor do I have a burning desire to express my opinion. As best I can, and through grace, I aim to give expression to what is in the heart through experience. In general I find this is most effectively delivered by Poetry which does not seek to impose but more to evoke what is already present in the reader.

Love from David.

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Peter Blumsom



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And there, David, let's leave it. The views of Poet's are always welcome in our Republic though I'm still scratching my head about the relevance of Mr Caird (holder of LL.D., DCL and DLitt.).
Pete
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Yuri Leonardas



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The on of the topic was diverted onto hold thousands of words ago before Caird - and sometimes a river wants to meander - David provided fishing rights to a separate beat of the same river.


It does not matter how lyrical or philosophical we are, though often without knowing but by judging why a conscience leads a person to be long to short we play only to human delusion. We can come very adept are running our inquiries according to what a quasi estimation of human quantities might be, - a weight upon non libra scales concerning phenomenon of mind and we can unwittingly enable ourselves to judgement upon a conscience. Occasionally - said by us to depict an ego acquiring too much knowledge - and then - for what purpose we ask ?. Only then exclaim 'For Consider !! - and finally an xyz of various eruditions from TRUSTED sources calmly explains our own inferiority by proxy.

Sure - this is not as to judge as this reflex - is based and dependent on a lack of trust by just to trust ratio's - filtered byways that are not even divinely possible in conscientious terms. By doing so we pretend that for moments - parts of the human predicament do not apply to us - we make a dichotomous judgement by the same dichotomous judgement we deny.

Another kind of Aporia - while perhaps the essence itself of Aporia is not being offensive like this. Nor is it explicitly designed for the trusted & the celebrated in order to condense their intestines to the joy of the poetry loving nations. ( we are just very glad it takes place ). Perhaps supplying us with its field by which we can make to break civilised humanity.

'This' is civilised - That isn't - = actually lack of trust & not a efficient way to make core evaluations

Aporia arguably a force designed, melded, or naturally occurring by what ?. What is its positioning ? - just inches from the poetical Noodle ? - just 10 miles high in the troposphere? . Is it not far below infinity where newtononian forces can still count - or above that into an unlimited spectrum where natural numbers no longer do - but perhaps the musical numbers loved become divine ones.

And they sure are

But the act of speculation violates no devotional concept from historical man - that is a delusion. To speculate provides no judgement upon a conscience thus inquiry of any quality is not thirst for knowledge - that is a delusion also. If fact - every judging like that has been pointless since each was merely a trust & personality issue or measures upon the corporeal years of a mind . We know not what any lecture is for unless we know the conscience involved but cannot - it is again trust or not

Human conscience is an intimate implicit mystery. We can trust the conscience of our loved ones or who we might choose to admire. If we are lucky we arrive where we are able to trust many. Trust is a separate phenomenon knowing any conscience.

Opinions are similar perhaps - they might process in a dependence on the conscience as a source of epiphenomenon to an unknowable. There isn't any correlation between brevity and quantity of words in comparison to conscience, -to feel one does grasp another segment upon the eternal soul is to breach the divide of aformention in universal 'law'. Making unacknowledged thins as if acknowledged

In Poetry of there is something authentically intense in meaning & minimised in length. The doctrines of pentameter lending more evidence to this for they place a further law. - for neither can suffice an unobtainable essence - and the 'opinions' we read are even further away from knowing a conscience - though no doubt the fascination is divine in nature as the minimalist universe speaks with such wonderment

We can dope ourselves with allergies through lack of patience for being convinced that a complete cosmos was discussed 6000 years ago then take up a microcosmic war against the very epiphenomenon existent in our own epiphenomenal search. We might hate unfamiliar labels and choose to circumvent that sufficient matters were not in fact labelled. In poetry none are required, in philosophy sadly the process is rather a lot or else we can be aimless circumlutionists.

Perhaps the worst thing we can do though is curse the present for being different or separate for a lost present of ancient times - none of which might be in the slightest coherent should none of it proceed free from the delusion that we are knowing Conscience rather than trust.
It might be that if we claim to know any conscience we have retained a primary obstacle of Aporia

As for Caird - he sounds as though attempting to gain such trust by describing his own conscience through an understanding of Plotinus - in that way its inclusion is very relevant tbh. Sometimes there are three kinds of people who explore philosophy - those whose entire family were eliminated by a war, and those with all or some survivors. There are too many reasons why conscience elsewhere is what it is for us to assume we are knowing of any of than what we consciously regard of our own Which - according to Plotinus ( i feel ) - is not something within incarnate human grasp being itself a journey into self trust.


Quote:
The first is, that the religious man's realisation of the deepest truth often takes a form which might without much inaccuracy be described as a “presence deeper than knowledge,” or at least deeper than his knowledge.



I'd not feel he is attempting to promote human feeling above 'knowledge' - but illustrate a way the divine source transcends it ( finally perhaps ) For any notion like this - it shall require a perceptual ability for the human to sense the divine by. But if we actually have no opinions during exchanges with other ( on media like a forum ) if say there is a hidden doctrine that opinions = Ego - what is the point in any journey along the path of poetry or philosophy whatsoever ?


A concience which is impossible not explicit during contact ( but implicit ) - yes. One hopes to have tackled some of the basics of Aporia enough to realise that implicit position perhaps without resorting to full blown Agnosticism as Caird harbingers.

So we claim a stillness do we ? - an impeccable inner knowing to refrain from opinions - or is it just plain Agnosticism ?. I am not in the least being sarcastic - surely it is a question of trust if this idyllic reach along a river of consciousness-time is in fact just agnosticism on something actually transcended ?

I have nothing against those i learn to trust taking a minor accession in that form and not being Agnostics - often indicative through fine poetry indeed
Others just do not know what it is to be wounded in the conscience by life and proceed to that place @ the age of 1 day old

And there is something very right about that - there was no war as is right. Separate compartment from which to encounter Aporia though - which does not care how it is encountered or by whom because it exists for no man and everyman and existented as long as existence.

That is why it is reasonable to regard it as an essence - but ee might delude ourselves that essences can only be suspected of their 100% purity of creation yes. Aporia will not help like this - it will show how it enables the great bard or the psychopath to kill as he will mistake Aporia in this way

That part has nothing to do with poor non sentient Aporia - as surely it links to why the divine needed to make imperfect beings on a plane of physical existence - perhaps little else


That a perception of the world contains 'spirit of the place' should we avoid the depth of the Plato et al inquiry ? - ofc it bloody is !! - that indeed is the great thing about just being and poetry.


Aporia bent into joy & light for us by a great bard ( or ourselves ) is 1 type of definition of a version of aporia meets Poetry. Alternately - ones gut neutrons will feedback disillusionment and a slight headiness when another is discussing non modified Aporia during times when others want the poetic a flight of fancy - almost absolutely they will.

We are inclined to be modified to slightly misjudge at such times - all of us.

Quote:
As best I can, and through grace, I aim to give expression to what is in the heart through experience.


Spoken with a sincerity with usually denotes something compelling enough to begin to Trust - we all have so many ways by which we wish our conscience to be trusted.

Quote:
Love from David



What else can i say other than love to you David - except perhaps i'd feel Pete might have a problem expressing it sometimes. ( he just cannot let things go ).


Last edited by Yuri Leonardas on Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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