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David Tang
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The text says: " if we describe her as a Kind invisible and unshaped, all-receptive, and in some most perplexing and most baffling way partaking of the intelligible, [51b] we shall describe her truly."

Like a small animal, shrewdly ducking into its copper webbed hutch, you cage yourself and avoid the ocean. If we aver that the receptacle is not visible (you are too timid to put your soul to the test and answer a question put to it), we might even say, that it does not show up in a mirror, then it can not be the wood of the oak. The swelling young branch is quite visible to the gardener.

You are correct, I find there is total error in the view that the issue concerns Archimedean better approximation of a circle or any such similar thing (that is a gross misreading of the Seventh Epistle), as in the issue with calculus, which supersedes the method of adding ever more sides to a polygon. Mathamatikos, the lowest use of nous, as you know, in the Greek world, has no part in the senses, and so can not show up in the visible oak branch. The receptacle, therefore, can not be the oak wood.
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Peter Blumsom



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it seems that your search for an answer must go on. Good luck my friend.
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David Tang
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You really are afraid to answer questions. I never remember you risking doing so. If you did, then you would have the chance to learn something. If it were me, I should have said "invisible" at once. Since it is there in the text. Later, true, any of us might require to revise our view when more is exposed. It's not, after all, so clear what visibility is with respect to accidents and substances.

Not once, in all your comments for these many years, did you provide any datum for philosophic research. You refuse, always, to answer simply from the soul. That is very bad.
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Peter Blumsom



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The true nature of the circular has no truck with the straight which means that it is not constructed in the workshop by the lathe's straight edge. Yet this is of interest is it not? Plato has given us vital data here, because, strangely, you know something of the true nature of the circular via something that is its very antithesis,. For standing alongside the pristine nature of the circle itself, with its fivefold comportment regarding the world, is the world's reply as it were. 'Becoming's' best effort, an approximation or, if you like, something 'at a tangent'. Yet that second entity also has beauty in its very 'falling short'. I truly believe that Plato holds these oppositions before us so that we may learn, for we in the world are also ensouled. There is nothing wrong with approximation used in a dialectical way. Dialectic moves as such (by opposition) until it sees the light over the hill and then closes in with a vehemence,

So, just as the slave boy in Meno we rehearse that over and over until we know it in our soul. This is the continual self examination - not of the circle but of the soul which, if you've learnt your lessons though reading timaeus, has a foot in either camp. Its nature includes an unlikely amalgamation of both Same and Other.

Remember, in that little parable in Meno, the slave-boy was taught the value of approximation by Socrates himself as a way to true remembrance.

Now I did give you something, a datum if you like, in my last but one mail, that bears examination. It goes a little way beyond saying what's already on the page. Neither is it obvious but needs a refined examination for which perhaps you may not have the tool kit. I'm not sure I have but for me it's an interesting prospect. As a starting point et me put it in the form of an analogy:

As the integer is to rational intelligence, so the irrational is to the upadoche, the Receptacle and nurse of all becoming.

Tang, I'm giving you here something to get your data teeth into. If you still have any, close in - for as far as I'm concerned this is the only way forward.
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David Tang
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soc. Do not he and you and Empedocles say that there are certain effluences of existence?

Men. Certainly.

Soc. And passages into which and through which the effluences pass?

Men. Exactly.

Soc. And some of the effluences fit into the passages, and some of them are too small or too large?

Men. True.

Soc. And there is such a thing as sight?

Men. Yes.

Soc. And now, as Pindar says, "read my meaning" colour is an effluence of form, commensurate with sight, and palpable to sense.

Men. That, Socrates, appears to me to be an admirable answer.

Soc. Why, yes, because it happens to be one which you have been in the habit of hearing: and your wit will have discovered, I suspect, that you may explain in the same way the nature of sound and smell, and of many other similar phenomena.

---

Your statement contains a multitude of presuppositions under preoccupied musings of which we auditors of the truth are hardly acquainted for you go on in a long train of reasoning never allowing us to peer between the cars into the free and brilliant air.

“The true nature of the circular has no truck with the straight which means that it is not constructed in the workshop by the lathe's straight edge.”

This is already a very erratic statement and complex agglutination, and, then, after, you make it a premise for ten thousand other reflections as if the child were already exposed to heat cold hunger pathogene and predator and had passed the test.

Like Meno, you genuinely think philosophy might advantage you, but, you prefer fancy statements of which you are long familiar to simple and ever younger investigation of the datum of the soul. The philosopher loves truth in the soul, and to speak about truth. But, amidst yourselves, you and Meno, love to speak about what truth is in booming and humming nomenclature brimming like the cup of the pride of the cognoscenti.

You still refuse to tell us whether the partial text says the receptacle is visible or invisible. It may be just as well to treat this excerpt, that you solicited, as though it were a fragment.
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Peter Blumsom



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In other words you have nothing positive to contribute.
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David Tang
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even Meno was willing to answer simple questions. I just don't know how you can ever and always bare to exist in a state of utter contradiction to the true spirit of philosophy....

If you wish to discuss your line of quoted text, though it seems to me off topic, I should be at the ready, so far as serious discussion, rather than long winded lectures were in order.

Also, I will point out, that I am not satisfied with the usual views concerning the slave boy. As it seems to me, Socrates' chief point is to distinguish rote repetition from grasping a thing in our soul. Since, after all, there is a certain similarity in the political man with his slogans and the parrot who but makes his squawking noise resemble divine speech.
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Peter Blumsom



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 1167
Location: Wembley, London, UK

PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. I think I'll give it a pass. Your need to control what should be a free and easy discussion is a tad oppressive. I feel like I've been savaged by a garden gnome. So the law of diminishing returns tells me our conversation is at an end, though, knowing you, a few barbed comments might follow.
Fare thee well, O Tang.
The rest is silence
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