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Some thoughts on Plato's Same and Other.
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Yuri Leonardas



Joined: 29 Jan 2012
Posts: 43
Location: Twickenham near London UK

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
holder of LL.D., DCL and DLitt


Sure he did all that just to emit his conscience across large volumes - seems like a waste to me since it comes free
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Peter Blumsom



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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Location: Wembley, London, UK

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David, I think I may have done you a disservice. I don't think I cottoned on properly to what Caird (holder of LL.D., DCL and DLitt.) said, and therefore I apologise. It's a bad habit of mine - jumping to conclusions. But I do at least occasionally return to re-examine.

Caird is obviously talking of the individual, separate self, that he says Plotinus strives to move away from in order to reach a 'deeper knowing'. You cannot move away from the true self - it tends to be ever present and before thought processes.

Plotinus' passage talks of how the Soul must lose all its individual characteristics in order to receive the Forms in all their splendour, just as in a lower realm, characterless matter receives perceptions of objects without any masking impediment. As Plato makes Timaeus say:

“Manufacturers of scent contrive the same initial conditions when they make liquids which are to receive the scents as odourless as possible.” [50e]

I believe the following passage is misleading though if he considers that it follows Plotinus' philosophy.:

Quote:
Are we then to say that the whole process of spiritual ascent is not a movement to a more full and concrete consciousness of reality, but simply a movement of abstraction, in which, one after another, every feature of the world we know disappears till nothing is left? And is the “presence deeper than knowledge” in which it ends only another name for the disappearance of the soul and all its contents in the absolute unity?


As a Platonist he would certainly not consider spiritual ascent an mere abstraction. I'm not sure whether Caird considers this Plotinus' view and one which he opposes when he ends:

Quote:
For it is, after all, with materials derived from the world of sense that we must build up our New Jerusalem; and the Divine Being whom we oppose to everything else, would be a mere abstraction, if we did not somehow refer all that is finite to him.


It always seems to get blurry when we try to blend Christianity with Plato and Neoplatonism, but that doesn't stop people trying. Whether it matters or not is for the individual to decide.

Pete
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Peter Blumsom



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuri,
Yes, you show considerable restraint in your mail of a couple of days ago. I felt you were being on your best behaviour, but you don't need to worry about gabbling on. We all do it. The thing I try remember is respect the logos, its the only one you've got.

I think I got most of your points you were making, but it was what you said about your mother that remains in the mind. It must have been a terrible and harrowing experience, and it also must have had a profound effect on you. She would have been a person of great substance not to have been completely overwhelmed by the events that happened to her. Substance - Ousia originally meant a man who when knocked down, got up again. I hadn't heard of Batavia and read up about it on line. There are so may things one just doesn't know about.

Pete
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Yuri Leonardas



Joined: 29 Jan 2012
Posts: 43
Location: Twickenham near London UK

PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Pete & David

Quote:
but simply a movement of abstraction


This is an interesting turn of phrase in itself - a metaphor perhaps as a farmer might have a sluice he can open to irrigate the crops. Here maybe it is clear Caird means another of those not uncommonly spoken altering in the orientation of ones consciousness by reapportioning the self to the whole. The mystical experience in transforming one view of everything material as God. 'All is God energy' where only that potential barrier is Agnosticism which would neatly prevent a God from this omnipotent outlook - as Caird suggests. But again this whole mindset depends on conscience belief & trust in the divine. Personally i tend to flow with the idea that conscience is a present segment of the eternal soul 'in waiting' - conscience being concluded per the incarnation, thus would become part of our 1 immortality.

It might be true that all theology now hits the logical buffers of reincarnation concepts - but ofc christianity prefers 1 life on earth followed by heaven purgatory or indeed Hell.

In the slightly demographic point of view meant by mentioning Batavia ( at all ) was not as such to focus on peoples journey to faith from either advantaged - poor or catastrophic circumstances since the social divide itself is too complex. More the poignant way that no greater quality of conscience seems apparent just because of spiritual erudition or advantage. I'd suppose we could take most literature - even when there can be charitable links (say) to the foundation who helped publish X book so on. But when we actually read the utopian philosophies, they is generally written by those detached from the struggle which most humanity encounter!.

However i also want (say) Plotinus to relate his most intimate feelings free from social distractions the same as most readers. Certain social 'struggles' can indeed be surplus to the topical requirement and this is nothing to be ashamed of. I just feel that when any author of Utopian ideals attempts to make sense then the philosophical substance is inextricable from social conscience and i cannot understand how a God of sentience or non sentient one would agree with an elite version. We are taking it for granted that non sentient intelligence is linked to creation after all. How would omnipotence make mistakes with creation in a state where it shall elect not to be supportive of the less able in society ?

It isn't logical surely unless we ourselves choose to walk on a dark side

So often on wishing to focus on very fine points in a philosophers words - i feel we often reach a bridge where we need to have at least some insight into the quality of conscience ( of an author ) - else we might find text empty.


Quote:
And this holds still more obviously of the last movement of ascent to the immediate experience of the absolute One. Plotinus himself confesses that this, if it be in one sense a progress to a deeper experience, is yet a movement away from all definite consciousness either of the self or of its objects


Likewise - i feel that we can only assume the querent has decided he is not an atheist or agnostic unless we have reason to place trust which is very pure thus taking easily for granted. Although alternatively we could be witnessing agnostic theism and we take someones word for it when they state it is for a God. If that isn't the process and we feel sure we know (we or they ) believe in God this might be because ourselves feel we 'know god'. From the faith standpoint maybe we 'technically' do while from the philosophical remaining technically agnostic.

Which is why my own preoccupation with conscience is a measure i wish to use. Not to decide matters, but to try to learn of who or what might be apportioned the tokens of Trust in ones convictions which i believe might be the more accurate 'rate' of co-dependent belief exchange between persons which goes on in our quests to understand each other on these finer levels

Yuri.
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David A Taylor



Joined: 20 Aug 2015
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Location: Penang, Malaysia

PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Pete and Yuri

If I were in the same room I would just give both of you a big hug.
I think Caird would most likely do the same.

Everything is relevant since all is a manifestation of God
and no-thing is anymore relevant when his presence is all that is real.
There are those who seek to find a path
and those who's path is the one of knowledge.
For the devotional one, he follows that path
where God is most manifest to him.
Both paths lead to the same place since
Knowledge, Consciousness and Love are inseparable.

Love from David

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David
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Yuri Leonardas



Joined: 29 Jan 2012
Posts: 43
Location: Twickenham near London UK

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
David, I think I may have done you a disservice


Certainly not - i had already performed the disservice of giving the impression that the tempo and spirit of the place was like the peace of a crystal flow of Lethe for once free of Oblivion. Rhyme then began a season of fruitfulness and i announced - ' i have changed my mind, lets have a chariot race'. - (please forgive)

Quote:
jumping to conclusions

This nobbled & disoriented you - i enacted too much contrast in the philosophical energy and with awkward timing like a 6-8 flamenco trying to clatter heels upon a 2-4 march beat but during a 3-4 dance of the Gadfly.
Quote:

She would have been a person of great substance not to have been completely overwhelmed by the events that happened to her


She was deeply interesting in how she tried to move on from it yes. You might imagine she was a very young wife when the enemy arrived and they swept across those regions & islands. The oppressors knew that a counter invasion would be immanent and took it that several were capable. They believed her husband of the time could have supplied them information and they killed him in the process turning to her in the same way. Her own mother lived in Bournemouth but in the 50's mother took up residence in Pimlico as part of the emerging avant-garde scene thus living the bohemian lifestyle. As i suggested she was aware that her predicament was very challenging. And she had resultant sensory impairments ( or issues ) inasmuch as her peace was hard to obtain & retain as aforementioned. Indeed then Pete - when i started looking back i was to recognise the extent of the harrowing nature of the position

I have never known what impact exactly though, the relationship with her was a series of short lunching symposiums ( if i may ) - on creative thinking art & philosophy. Sometimes the watercolour was make-up & tea upon charcoaled outlines of such as symbols in caves she had visited. But she died and i suppose those estree lauder & typhoo meetings were the impact as this was the only kind of contact with her. She was always adjusting the neck her blouse in case i saw what was emerging from below. Suitable poised her message was most usually on the meaning of life ostensibly where it shall = artistic freedom & philosophical improvisation.

So really you were nobbled by my propensity to expect sudden bursts of free Jazz Pete - and i must do something about the general timing and staccato factors.

Quote:
Yes, you show considerable restraint in your mail of a couple of days ago

Lol dunno about that
Quote:
The thing I try remember is respect the logos


So agree as in an epiphenomenal procession intention is very linked to conscience. Strangely i noticed the word epiphenomenon used in a exponents texts yesterday on relating the influence Heraclitus had upon Plato - perhaps other perceive a need to use wider volcabulary also.

At the same time i had felt like listening to some flamenco on youtube - so they were rolling away. But became interrupted by something i had forgotten about and i wish did not exist. In the past i have had friends in that community, one of which has been of long standing a dancer who is now in her 80's - but what a vibrant live wire she still was when we first met almost 40 years ago. It seems someone used todays surveillance mindset and believes they have evidence of an anti-social behaviour coup of the century.

She was just redistributing bits on the communal carpet in order to show that the contract cleaners (due that day) they need to do a better job - one can see it isn't safe for her to vacuum the stairs should they continue not to do this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeH9mZ7jjxA

Such a cut and dried case until something alternatively simple explained it - and the people might continue to rely on what they see through such technology. But one cannot blame the 'observer' here that is the ironic thing


Yuri


Last edited by Yuri Leonardas on Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:33 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Yuri Leonardas



Joined: 29 Jan 2012
Posts: 43
Location: Twickenham near London UK

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Knowledge, Consciousness and Love are inseparable.


Dear David

Bulls in china shops everywhere adore your wisdom & heartfelt sincerity no doubt.

I spent a long time meaning to get around to learning how to compose poetry until one day i realised i would be better to take it from those who have - for there are just so many ways we can express our curiosity with increased perception.

I must see again your piece on Centrality

Though - may my Venus shine somedays like yours


Yuri
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Yuri Leonardas



Joined: 29 Jan 2012
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Location: Twickenham near London UK

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It always seems to get blurry when we try to blend Christianity with Plato and Neoplatonism, but that doesn't stop people trying. Whether it matters or not is for the individual to decide.


Certainly does become opaque ..

Similarly on the question of whether Plotinus just went about his nu rationalised restatements and they simply happened to be tactile to Gnostics or if there was any collaboration. Hard to say isn't it ? - my personal feeling is that he didn't go about it that way but who knows.

It is intelligible when the greeks are quoted as good observers of 'a deity'. But once this becomes a specified god thus the works are cited among some further inevitably specific doctrines it is as clear as mud - absolutely


Yuri
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